Tuesday, April 1, 2008

Travel Documents


Hey, my fans want me to post.

Cannot disappoint them, can I? Yet I am wondering how to say what I do want to write.

Should be a rant, like the ones that 27th is famed for. But I dislike shouting. Just makes me not to hear anything. Cold remorseless logic is better, gets to be heard, even when I am making little sense.

And yes, I am dedicating this to 27th, who accuses me of a western bias, because I am gay.

Ugandans know a guy called Brenda. A gal, because Brenda is a trans person. Meaning that biologically the birth was to a male baby, but growing up Brenda was more confortable in the female role, and ultimately embraced the female gender.

Far as I know, she has not got surgery.

I expect Ugandans to know of her because she fascinated them, on our coming out in August 2008. She detailed the imprisonment that she had gotten, the beatings, the ridicule and physical abuse at the press conference. She took out her teeth to show that she was wearing dentures after one time that the police beat her up.

Why was she being beat up?

Well, I am gay. And we have met, 27th and I. But he did not know that I am gay, because I do not ‘look’ gay. Trans people are different. They usually, visibly, cross the gender roles. And they pay the price heavily.

I can, and do hide the fact that I am gay. Brenda does not. She does not hide the fact that she is transgender.

Recently, Brenda needed travel documents. They were denied. Reason, they don’t give them to ‘people who have changed themselves’. Julie Victor Mukasa tells of the time that she had to prove that she was biologically female at the RDC’s office in Kampala, when she went to get passport forms filled. Use your imagination how she proved that.

Our constitution states that it is a citizens right to get a passport. Brenda is apparently not included in that definition of a citizen. But that is besides the point. Fact is, those of us who are in LGBTI activism, are suddenly finding problems getting travel documents.

I don’t doubt that Nsaba Buturo knows who gug is. He was crowing to the fact that he knew who we are. We appeared in the press conference in masks, and Ssempa had Victor’s picture on a website, and our names were read out on the church fm stations. And I cannot in truth hide from the state intelligence apparatus. Would be lying myself to think so.

I am ranting, very carefully, because it has made me mad to realize again that I am a second class citizen because I am gay. And that the likes of Nsaba Buturo think that they can deny me what is mine as a Ugandan, simply because I am also gay.

Very likely I may have problems traveling next time that I need to do so. My passport may light up or something. Happened in Rwanda last month. Apparently, LGBTI activists need permission to leave the country!

27th, this is my beef with you.

You state, almost jokingly, that we are ‘collaborators’. You think it is so, simply because we do accept friendship from the west, from people who are like us, gay, and have passed through the same experiences. You demand the impossible, that if we do want to be ‘legitimate’ we have to follow your paths to emancipations. Paths which mean that we shall never have emancipation.

Bullshit, 27th.

I do like your idealism, but not when you use it to step on my freedom.

That is exactly the reasoning that Nsaba Buturo and Ssempa are using to justify stepping on our civil rights. The fact that you have it so prettily zazzed up in speech and your ideology does not mean that you are correct.

Hell, you are welcome to your beliefs. So is Buturo, and Ssempa, as long as they do not mean that my freedom is curtailed. Sex workers are also human beings. They do have a constitutional right to meet. So do LGBT people, as we proved last year.

I will rail, again and again that just because we are different, that does not mean that we need to be more patriotic than you. To reject ourselves in the interest of being African enough for the likes of you. To have to listen to your bullshit about how we should live our lives, and what friends we should have, and whether they have the correct skin colour or the correct ideology.

Comrade, I am the oppressed here, and I will also take up the gun to defend myself. To hell with your self serving idealism and condemnation.

I am what I am, and I do not need to measure up to your ideals.

Tell Ssempa and Buturo that, and if deTamble cannot push it down your throat, well, believe in whatever the hell you believe in. But let me be me.

Uhhhhhhhhhhh!

That is what it means to take something off ones chest? Think I should do it more often.

GayUganda

27 comments:

Eshuneutics said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeTamble said...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Sweet! Here we go again. Nice post GUG and now over to you 27th, are you going to rip it to shreds or support it? I wish we were on the same time so I didn't have to wait to see it!

DeTamble said...

@27th: Do you sometimes forget that GUG is a person? He isn't a political group. He isn't West vs. Africa, or West vs. anywhere for that matter. So when he says he feels support from the West's LBGT groups he means he feels support on a personal level. Not on a political organisation level. You always forget about the people! Unless it's someone suffering because they're watching their family starve and even then you go straight into politics again.

Sometimes you need to remember the people and the LGBT and GUG is one of those times. He needs support! So what if the support comes from your hated 'West'! LGBT isn't even Western and the only reason they appear to be is because it's only the West that will let them speak as loudly as they want. Everywhere else tries to shut them up because they're little frightened homophobes who are too stupid and too scared to let anything exist that may be a little different from themselves!

LBGT is about people, not a political standing. It's not Communism vs. Capitalism! If you refuse to see that then you are member of the ignorant mass and I will dream of pushing you in front of an oncoming train. The mass needs a little thinning out and you can go first.

Remember to look past the politics, look at the people. This is entirely about people, it's not about trade or borders or your disgust for the West. This is only about GUG and if he feels some much need support from LGBT then they should be, if not admired, then at least left alone. Not subjected to your political rants.

John Powers said...

A Ugandan friend recently asked me about straight allies for gay rights. My answer, or beginning of an answer was a long but rather shallow gloss of American history. I was trying to engage his question, and trying to get to the context for in which straight allies acted. As I did this one version of 27th Comrade's point came to mind:

"Just, instead, try to give pro-LGBT diiscourse an entirely African face."

It really isn't just a face, but the face that's a mirror into the heart and soul.

GUG, there's can be no dispute you are African.

Once Sokari told me in comments at Black Looks to "please for once step back and listen to the people." At least that's how I remembered it. Naturally I thought I was listening, and was ranting over the comment to my friend and he asked me: "Are you mad at Sokari?" The question came as a surprise, or rather the answer in my mind did: "No! I love Sokari." There's no question that I was mad, and I know Sokari only from reading her blog, so to say I love her was a bit of a stretch.

The point is it is frustrating to know how to act as an ally. I'm a white American full of presumptions of privilege. I am also a person who want to work with others to create better ways of living.

Reading a blog about American politics today about how Obama uses language in a way that other progressives can adopt link:

"These practices should point to new alternatives and new ways of thinking that build from, incorporate, and retell stories about our shared histories in a way that both explains the conflicts that we must overcome in the present and the paths that we can possibly take in the future."

I live in Pennsylvania, and soon there will be primary elections and Clinton is considered the favorite to win in this state, although almost certainly not nationally. Some of the severe criticism of Obama is he's all talk. I'm pretty impressed with his talk. And high among the reasons is what that blog post pointed to about retelling stories about our shared history.

George Ayittey is a prominent African intellectual in the USA. There is so much I find right about what he says, but I'm often uncomfortable too. For example Ayittey has often references Kwame Nkrumah and obliquely a famous paper he presented in 1967 African Socialism Revisited.

To my Western ear the paper is important precisely because it retells stories of shared history and telling about a path to take.

Stories of Ghana will surely vary about Nkrumah. But telling our stories is essential. I like reading your blog for your stories. There are people all over who want to collaborate and be allies together. At minimum Sokari's advice to me is very sound, we ought to listen.

I fault 27th Comrade with trepidation, but from my outside perspective it seems your beef with him is to imagine that your story is not yours but a story handed to you by the West.

But your story is yours and it connects with Uganda and to the world. I'm very happy you keep telling your stories.

The 27th Comrade said...

Okay ... I have a lot to write back, I think. But that will be later. For now, let me calm the waters by saying a few things. (Work initialisation calls, I'll ba back.)

I blogged angrily, once, about how that Brenda guy was treated. I'll probably furnish you with the link. His/her story is roughly the worst kind of thing you may have to endure.

Next, that you're having trouble with travel documents is quite sad in and of itself. But not as sad as having trouble getting into school because you are physically-handicapped.
Anyway, that isn't topical. What I'm saying is that I don't support it. I don't see why you roll Dr. Nsaba-Buturo and Pr. Ssempa into the same basket as me. That's quite nearly unforgivable. :o)

You, as ULGBT, go farther than just accepting friendship with the West. You pretend everyone here is trying to kill you. That is, of course, not true. The big problem with you (plural) is that you (plural) often do something I've seen you (singular) do: think that Nsaba-Buturo-Ssempa attitude is what all straight people here have towards you.
That's not true, and I'm certain you can trace it back to Western media, because these Americans and Brits are always groping about for a reason to feel more-elevated and superior to the Blacks in the Savannah.

More-importantly, I repeated that I am not against LGBT+West. I am against Anything+West. I'd not be saying different things if it had been StraightActivists+West.
I'm so fucking tired of these Westerners with an angering superiority complex trying to look over our shoulders every five fucking seconds. I hate it, and all those who think it is okay.

Now, Eshuneutics, I never said he has been influenced by the West. He isn't. He is collaborating with the West. That's bad.

"27th criticises you for "collaborating" with the West. I wish you would. I wish you would collaborate more. The views of 27th ought to inspire you towards that aim because his thinking really does show how his African Marxism offers you (as an African Black gay male) nothing but veiled homophobic rants and smoke-filled prejudicial rhetoric."

Cool, let him collaborate more. Most people won't notice, and of those who notice most won't care. But me, I will. I'll hate GUG for pretending redemption can only come from some Western country and the like. I may even kill him for it. :o)
And if you think I'm filled with homophobic prejudice ... um, cool. :o)

@DeTamble: I don't think I made any link to GUG/LGBT/ULGBT with politics. Did I?

DeTamble said...

@27th: LGBT is not the West. There is no LGBT+West. There is LGBT and then there is the West. They're two different things. They don't go hand in hand.

GUG knows that Buturo-Ssempa attitude isn't shared by all straight people. It's just that Buturo-Ssempa are more prominent in society and are heard by more people. It's not nice being attacked by prominent people. It makes you feel unsafe and a little paranoid.

Western media? FUCK OFF SLUT! Western media didn't make Buturo's viewpoint. Western media didn't beat Brenda. Western media isn't giving gays a hard time getting travel papers. Western media didn't have a church group with a banner saying that gays were unwelcome.

Western media doesn't give a fuck about you!! Compared with the time given to other places in the world Africa barely exists.

Superiority complex? Watching you? Funny because it seems that it is you watching us! Leave us alone! We don't fucking care about you! Go and watch your own goddamn continent! We're tired of you criticising us constantly! Fuck off! Grow up! And sort out your own problems!

@GUG: 27th is right on this, redemption isn't coming from the West. So stop looking for it. We couldn't care less! Your poetry is good, don't follow eshuneutics, don't progress using Western standards. Make your own progression. No one likes a copy cat anyway.

@27th: You link LGBT with the West, you link the West with politics, therefore you linked LGBT with politics. And stop linking LGBT with the West, it's irritating and saying it is like saying homosexuals came from the West. When they didn't, they came from everywhere.

gayuganda said...

Hi all,

thanks a lot for your replies.

Had a rough night, other reasons, but was even more ready to rip 27th a new asshole. Thought he deserves it, but you have presented some pretty good arguments. He is a believer, so he is more apt to argue. But that is what he is.

To your concerns

Eshuneutics.
I am a human being. I do get influences from all people round me. Some are good, some are bad, some are just plain indifferent. Problem was that I was believing merit in 27th argument. There is no merit in it, however he argues. Not in the way I think. Oh, he will have to sort himself out. Not my problem that!

On the poetry, no, I did not realy laugh at you.
Actually, i do admire you. O told me good things about you. But on the poetry, I have to go back to the reason that I do write what I do. It is not to excel. Dont want to be another 'poet' or other. I do it because I want.
I see what I see, and it translates into poetry. My emotions mix in what I write.
I dont want to discipline them. I do not want to train them. I do not want to see like a westerner sees, or an African, or a Chinese, etc. I want to see as I see, as gug sees.
You are a teacher, and you itch to guide me. That encourages me, because it shows me that I do have some 'talent'. But as to developing it, making the progress that you are talking about, I have to fall back on what my personal expectations are.
I write because I want, because I feel the urge too. Yes, I would love the acclaim and recognition, but not at the expense of making me different from what I am.
Hope you can understand that. I did not laugh at you. I have trained in other things, and I do value learning. But the poetry that I do, I do it for me, and the pleasure that I get from it would be dimmed by trying my best to see in the way that someone else sees. This way, the mistakes that I make are mine. Hope you can accept that.

deTamble
you've put it so well that I will just spoil it if I add anything else to it. And thanks for clarifying some of my thought.

John
welcome.
I do like your comment, and the hesistancy with which you present it. You are welcome to challenge the notions of entitlement.
One thing that I have noted is the fact that when we Africans get on the high horse of 'imperialism, colonialism' etc, some of you guys decide not to answer because you feel that we have too much emotional baggage if you present your point of view. Here, for me, it doesnt matter. I am not ready to deny logic for the sake of some historical sense of victimisation. Oh, 27th will. But again, you have to have the courage to challenge his kind of thinking. We do not want 27th to become another Mugabe! He is still young, so there is hope!!
Yes, my story is mine, and 27th had made me forget that it is mine. Damn it, I am an African and I am not going to allow him to define for me what my story should be.

27th,
yeah, tone has changed. Because you are writing bullshit, and someone has to stand up to you and tell you that it is.
You have been presented with a variety of views. Eshuneutics shows how far from the west he thinks I am.
deTamble kindly teaches you some facts of life. Clarity of thought is not helped by lumping everything into some kind of label. That is illogical thinking. Very common, but it is stupid all the same. I am who I am, and I do not fall into any neat cartegories. And if I accept it by not showing that it is not so, I am doing you a disfavor.
Powers tiptoes around another facet of the answer.

And you come back talking about Brenda. I have noticed this fact. You point out something like that you did rail at Brenda's treatment, and then, satisfied that you have dealt with our concerns, you start stating the old argument.
In effect you believe that you are exonerated by your ire at the injustice you have aired.

Bullshit.

I still lump you with Ssempa and Nsaba Buturo. Not roll, but lump. You cry crocodile tears at my plight, and then prescribe a solution, and sit back smugly. I cannot surely follow your prescription, and when I fail, you point at that and start railing at me for not following your prescription.

Bullshit again.

This is my life, and this is my story, and this is my take on the story. And if you cannot see what I see, that is not my problem, as long as you are not going to hit me on the head with it. But if you do, I will hit back. Because you have lumped yourself with Ssempa and Nsaba Buturo.

Reminds me of Obama lumping Wright and the former vice presidential candidate together. You only see that the other is wrong and fail to see that you are wrong also.

Well 27th,
I will no longer allow your generalisations to hold me back. They are absurd. Outdated. And intellectually bankrupt.
And those are facts.

And, comrade, what is African about them?

deTamble is so good at kicking your ass that I feel bad when you don't seem to understand what she is saying. I will let her kick you, but dont expect me to leave unchallenged your assumptions

gug

Eshuneutics said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

@eshuneutics: wow, you're not just educated, you're a Pennsylvanian academic, aren't you. Speaking as someone with only one degree, I like gug's poetry. I find it 'poetic'. He captures what he experiences, using English in interesting ways that are his own but quite understandable, the same way that other contemporary poets I've read do (e.g.:Emily Dickinson, Walt Whitman). And it's more poetry than prose, if you want to use those categories. At least to me!

@27th: have to agree with gug, still. Your @anti' fervour drowns your 'pro' understanding. Being "against" things, and being "for" other things, isn't the same, and doesn't in the end add up to the same person. (It sounds the same thing, but it isn't). Mandela stood mainly 'for'; Mugabe stands 'against' - and the difference in their nature is palpable. SSempa sstands 'against' in all his public sstatements - and makes his church ssomething closed and exclusive and increasingly far from a Christ who included taxmen, women Samaritans and even Pharisees in his world.

gayuganda said...

Errr,

deTamble, dont mind Eshuneutics, he is an old friend who breathes fire. Forgets that people near may get singed!

Eshuneutics, that gal can give as well as she gets! Be ware.

Would be interesting to put Eshuneutics in a pit with 27th, winner is one who comes out alive,,, hey, what do you think of the idea?

gug

The 27th Comrade said...

Okay. I'm here for the long haul. I should be working, though. By now, GUG, I think you've seen the healing power of a nice rant. :o)

Let's see. GUG starts off thus: "And yes, I am dedicating this to 27th, who accuses me of a western bias, because I am gay."
Wrong from the very beginning. I'd think I had been talking to someone else all yesterday in your comments. Just so you don't feel like making the same blind bummer again: I don't accuse you of Western bias because you're gay. I accuse of collaborating with the West, because it's how your community has chosen to work. I think I spent many keystrokes, yesterday, saying I was not saying this because you're gay, but because of your pro-imperialist bent.
This weird paranoia you show in that line is really a major affliction among you LGBT everywhere (and most minorities, anyway). You see shadows everywhere, and you bring everything down to "because I'm gay, because I'm gay, because I'm gay, because I'm gay". Please. If we hated you that much, you'd be dead already.
So, having seen that you started off on the wrong premise, I have nearly no drive to go on with this - everything is just as wrong. But I will.

On that Brenda guy. Yet more paranoia from you. Fuck the guys who beat Brenda up; but I don't know if you think I agree with them (or why). My point, from the last time we had this discussion (which you duck from, because the ULGBT modus operandi is to appeal to bleeding-hearts by saying "[insert unfortunate thing] me, because I'm gay") is that I don't care whether you're gay, straight, whatever. I care that you are pretending we are hunting you down actively. I say the same thing for our opposition, here. They rub shoulders too much with the West, and I hate them for that. They are not a gay group. The difference between them and you is that you'll pretend I'm doing this "because [you're] gay".
I see that you bring up Brenda, to make room for including me there. Whatever the reason, anyway, here is the medley rant where I mentioned Brenda.

I notice that you go, then, and reel off a whole bunch of jeremiads about the gays being beaten and the like. That's sad. I don't want to, yet again, post a link on where I screamed against it. It's all the stuff I should be used to, by now, coming from the people who want to pass for gay activists. But, more-importantly, I don't just stop at the gay people's stuff. I also scream against all other kinds of victimisation, and insist that, if we can't remove segregation and victimisation, at least let us, then, be fair and hand it to whoever deserves. We'll see that nobody survives it, and see why it is stupid.
Are you trying to say I'm for homophobes? I don't care if that's what you think. I saw that Eshuneutics said the same thing. I have no problem with that (only I wish I really was homophobic, so that I can have a reason to defend it).
But really this is simply your fall-back. I'm talking about you and your community's pretense that everyone here wants to kill you. That's paranoia; you've brought up the guys who beat Brenda and Pr. Ssempa, where it was me originally. So, you've put two classes of thinking in the same basket. I think you're straightphobic. :o) You're victimising us ... blah, blah, blah.

"I am what I am, and I do not need to measure up to your ideals."
As in, you're West-leaning, and you do not need to measure up to my Afro-centric ideals, right?
This has nothing to do with your being gay (and I hate the way you dodge it whenever I say this, GUG). It is about your being to West-leaning. And you're not the first I've jumped against for this. (But you're the first to pull out the paranoia card and go "Oh, it is because I'm gay!!!". You're also the first who was gay.) See: others were Americans, and they closed comments and entire blogs. John Powers here will tell you what kind of steam I use when I go to his blog and rant. I like my anti-West stand, because I bother to look at what they did. I don't want them anywhere near me, these Westerners. They are the Enemy. And if you feel you need to remain pro-West, we are definitely at war, then.
But just in case the usual minority-group paranoia hits again, you'll have these comments to come back to and maybe then you'll be able to see that I was ant-West, not anti-gay, all along. Anyway, you, at that time, won't have a bunch of people to impress or depress with paranoid jeremiads, so you'll be able to see things right.

"To hell with your self serving idealism and condemnation."
I'll give you 10,000/= for every letter (as in character of the alphabet, yes) that I wrote condemning your being gay. Anywhere on your blog. Just search and get rich. I wrote everything in the context of my being Westphobic, not homophobic. This paranoia of yours kind of angers me. And yes, if your being pro-West cannot be peeled of your being gay, we're at opposite sides of the trench. And I made that point better in the comment you linked to there, so I shouldn't repeat it here.

And you'll be at the next BHH, right? You certainly should rant more-often. It's healing, and it helps put things in perspective. It's a better use for the Net than leaving things as they are. Agitate the waters, so to speak. It is good. Rant away! Now, lemme descend to the comments. :o)

@Eshuneutics: This is how you summarised your comment:
"The views of 27th ought to inspire you towards that aim because his thinking really does show how his African Marxism offers you (as an African Black gay male) nothing but veiled homophobic rants and smoke-filled prejudicial rhetoric."
So, you know, if, to you, I am only spewing veiled homophobic rants, you can't have read me right. I don't have the urge to reply to that; read me again, first. But here is the thing, anyway. None of you people, because you are Westerners, sees de-Westernisation of the LGBT debate as an option. And that is my whole point here.

Though you were running off at a tangent for most of it, you said something important, even nice: "By aligning yourself with gay rights outside Africa does not mean that you sell out to Capitalism."
I'll generalise "Capitalism" and make it "the West". Yeah, they can co-operate with the West, and that is okay. But there is this virus over here, not only among LGBT, that the West is the solution. It runs even into governments. These guys draw up budgets that are almost entirely going to be funded by the West. Just you wait when a minister is blogging. I'll rip at him/her just as hard as I did here.
Only he/she won't say "Oh, it's because I'm a finance minister!". He/she'll know I did it because of the ministry's pro-West leaning, and that alone.

By the way, GUG, I'm so disappointed that you failed to talk back at all on that, and you went on about "because of who I am", where "who you are" wasn't even "pro-West", but "gay". Or so I hope. No wonder people keep drawing up the silly link between ULGBT and the West. It's because of your (plural) nearly promiscuous worship of them. :o) Ah, but don't mind those. I have a rant waiting for them, somewhere. I had fun coming up with it, and it should be fun to have up there.

Eshuneutics said "A brave blogger... you are absolutely right to demand your rights!". Um ... yeah. Cool. I wonder if that doesn't help to show something. Everytime a gay person is faced with anything, it always comes down to their rights. Okay. Keep it up, but know it is angering.

@John Powers: I'm glad you told your Ugandan friend that. I think we all already know that the West can support homosexuals, et cetera, et cetera. But many people, GUG himself included, think that's where it stops.
Yeah, John, the trepidation I feel is really out of expecting the West to reach in too deep. History has shown. Oh, but we've gone on about the West on your blog before, and you already know how anti- I am. So that needs no background. :o) GUG should keep telling his stories, yes. But do you know what is sad? Many of his friends go into exile to the West, because they are gay. Good for them, bad for those who, like GUG, stay behind. They flee instead of bothering to make this a place they can flee to (ie, stay). It is all grounded in this thinking that all straight Ugandans/Africans want to kill all homosexuals. You see the way he lumps me with Dr. Nsaba-Buturo and Pr. Ssempa, for example. As a result, they are contributing to keeping GUG's story a story of a foreigner. They get exposed, and "go away to where they are more-welcome". Tell me if that is the best way to create a homophobe-free Uganda/Africa. Instead of pulling off them masks and saying "Am I not a brother?", they appeal to the West. Then they complain about the link with the West (which West and link I happen to hate). Imagine if American homosexuals were fleeing to Africa.

@DeTamble: LGBT+West is meant to be read as "LGBT plus the West", not LGBTWest. I mean, LGBT alone, fine. West alone, bad. LGBT plus the West, bad. Anything plus the West, bad. StraightActivists plus West, bad. It's like whatever you may have, plus evil bacteria: bad.
The West is bad, and all that comes into association with it.

"There is LGBT and then there is the West. They're two different things. They don't go hand in hand."
I know.

"GUG knows that Buturo-Ssempa attitude isn't shared by all straight people."
He doesn't.

"Western media? FUCK OFF SLUT! Western media didn't make Buturo's viewpoint."
No, it didn't. I wonder where I said that ...
I only noted that GUG's current paranoid way of looking at life is created, encouraged, kept alive by Western media. When there is a known homosexual who isn't disturbed, it is not news. The fact that GUG is alive is not news. But wait when they hold a conference and a number of homophobes hold a rally. That will be presented as the "oppressive climate" of Africa, and how we really want to lynch them, et cetera.
So, yeah, Western media created this stupid paranoia you see. Because they show those bad parts magnified and repeated. But on whether Western media did what you say up there, no. Where did I say that? Bother to read my comments like fully, 'kay?

"Western media doesn't give a fuck about you!! Compared with the time given to other places in the world Africa barely exists."
Until there is something negative to report, yes. Like if I shoot GUG. But if he shows up for the BHH and I buy him a beer ... that Africa doesn't exist.

"We're tired of you criticising us constantly!"
You can try reforming. It works most of the time.

"Fuck off! Grow up! And sort out your own problems!"
I'm sorting out a problem right now, by holding this debate. Although I usually just leave such comments ignored.

"And stop linking LGBT with the West, it's irritating and saying it is like saying homosexuals came from the West."
ULGBT, not LGBT, okay?
Still, to answer you, I am telling ULGBT to stop linking itself to the West. Got that? Which comments did you read? Sheesh. Passion like that should not be wasted, okay? Keep the passion held, read well, choose a target, send. You're skipping many steps, it seems. Bad waste of fervour.

"When they didn't, they came from everywhere."
I know. Where is it that I made a counterpoint to that? GUG knows, anyway, what I hate most about the African anti-LGBT stand. This whole "practice is from the West" thing. Then again, GUG and friends aren't helping. Check out above for what I said about it.

@GUG: I've given you another. Here. Deal with it. :o) And one for everyone present.

*takes his seat*

DeTamble said...

@eshuneutics: Wow! You wrote a whole post on my one sentence!

You said "YOU WOULD HAVE TO GO TO WESTERN POETS TO PROGRESS".

Why does his poetry have to progress?

And I don't know anything about poetry. Poets have always learnt from others? Everyone learns from others!

I said "don't progress by Western standards". You said "you would have to go to Western poets to progress". What are Western standards in poetry? Why the West? What's wrong with the rest of the world?

His poetry is good because I like it. Simple. I like something, it's good, I don't like something, it's bad. I didn't say it was soul grippingly amazing and mind blowing. I said it was good.

I never said he shouldn't learn, I didn't say he shouldn't read other poetry. I just said he shouldn't progress by Western standards. He shouldn't be using a standard at all, he should just write whatever he feels is right. By all means learn and grow but don't progress using a standard. He shouldn't write a poem and then wonder if it's up to the West's standard. That's all I meant.

You're right I don't know first hand the feeling of exile. I also don't believe that anyone who has loved a member of the same sex feels exiled. Also sexual identity and politics should never be linked. Society is wrong to link them. A persons sexuality should never have anything to do with politics and it is sad that it has to.

Why Western poetry? Why is there a Western and non-Western? Why can't poetry just be poetry?

Eshuneutics said...
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Eshuneutics said...
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DeTamble said...

During the revolution? I doubt I was alive and if I was I was too young to understand it.

The 27th Comrade said...

@Eshuneutics: You're frustrating. Anyway, this will be the last reply. I'm getting bored. See:

"27 th challenges your African identity because you collaborate with Westen ideas of Human Rights."
Where did I write that? I'm just bored, now.
For starters, I'd not give a care if I challenged his African identity. If I did, he'd be out of the line of fire. He's getting my guns precisely because I think him African.
Eshuneutics, it's why I don't care about you, you know.

"No, I am not an American academic. I have no wish to joing the ranks of those who sit with their pens in woods."
Heh. We agree with Eshuneutics on something, at least. :o) Are you not a brother?

Why do I have a feeling this O of whom Eshuneutics speaks is, in fact, AfriBoy?

Also, to say it, I like GUG's poetry. If nothing else, it chronicles the life, times, and concerns of one gay Ugandan at the beginning of the 21st century. This may some day be a reference for those doing research. It's a bit too focussed in scope, but it is, yes, an annal. Forgive that pun, I couldn't resist it.

"Alchemists eat burning salamanders for tea. :-)"
And you're also an alchemist! Are you not a brother! Plus, I discovered the magic's stone, then lost it.

"[...] and the African perspectives that were originated there: to take the debate into African contexts."
Obviously, the conferences have people who think like I do. Sadly, you have to cite someone else to have this to write - it couldn't come from you. That's pathetic. Clearly, someone who thinks like does attend these conferences.

"Quite frankly, 27th, you are talking about something you know nothing about. Just throwing word-grenades around like a frustrated terrorist."
Try replying to other things I said, while I learn more about what happened in the gay conferences. PinkNews may help. GUG has a Google Reader feed, I rarely click through, though. (Actually, I'm a tad bored, already. I know what I'm writing about - I sit next to African gays in taxis and bars and workplaces, while you dance on streets in the West.)

gayuganda said...

Hey,

I love this discussion. Must say that I have a bulldog mentality. I love worrying a thing to its conclusion. Eshuneutics and 27th, you throw around punches at all and sundry.

I said we should put you in a pit, together. I did not say that the prize would be me! No thanks.

Eshuneutics, I have heard your advice. Thanks.

27th. You argue well. Problem is, you will continue to make sure that I am somewhere relative to your personal beef with the world. Sorry, not interested.

To both of you, what I think of the various inter-related strains of the arguments presented is adequately summarized by deTamble. (Love you gal, do they have that much sense down under?)
“Why Western poetry? Why is there a Western and non-Western? Why can't poetry just be poetry?”

That is my personal opinion. And it is my story, as someone reminded me. Maybe I will change it later. Maybe I will not.

I am just not interested in taking a stand on your side or against you. If that defines me as against you, then that is your opinion. Just remember that I will only swipe back if you take a swing at me.

27th, Esheunetics frustrates you because you are so alike it is scary! No, forgive me, you do not have his tinder box temper- so you are different. It is amusing to see both of you hitting out at each other. You are welcome. I will referee. But I will not be the prize.

gug

Eshuneutics said...
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gayuganda said...

Ha!!!!

Has the revolutionary met his match?

Dont you worry eshuneutics. If he dares not come back, I will pursue him, crying 'Chicken, chicken, chicken....'

as revolutionary as a hamster rotating in a wheel

indeed!

gug

DeTamble said...

I think the revolutionary has better things to do. Like wrapping himself around a beautiful young girl.

gayuganda said...

Will not stop me from chasing after him. He has to be a good boy and take the medicine sometimes!

Hamster, where are you?

gug

DeTamble said...

The Hamster is busy.

Princess said...

Well!

The 27th Comrade said...

@GUG: Hamster's showing up for roll call, then to roll up Eshuneutics into a ball and bitch-slap him asking "Who's the Hamster?" And it'll go on until Eshuneutics says, "Okay, okay, I'm the Hamster."


@Eshuneutics: "I often sit next to trees, but I have yet to become an expert on biology."
Argh. This is not what I expected to find from Eshuneutics. You talk pages about poetry, you should be able to pick the metaphor out of that. But I'll make it easier for you, because I'm not sure how much effort you are willing/able to put into it:
I meant that I'm in more contact with African gays than you are. Where contact is something similar to what is happening here, viz., arguing with them, talking with them. Certainly, if you talked to trees, you'd be a biologist nonpareil.

"Oh well, revolutionaries have always been short on empathy...makes 'em easier to brainwash."
Not really. More like very interested in sanity? I mean, hills aren't mountains. GUG sees a homophobia hill, declares a mountain. That's what I'm frothing against, right now.

"I doubt there was anyone at that conference thinking like you, 27th."
But you just declared that to be the fact, Eshuneutics! There are people there who think the African LGBT movement should be made more-African. And, until this time I re-educated you, this realisation was way out of your scope, this my way of thinking. (Although, of course, there are others who, you noted, think like me.)

"Equally, there won't be anyone using your ideas for reference. It just might be that the poetic word is more interesting than the Marxist sword. GUG might win out yet."
Yeah, whatever. At least GUG's poetry sword is for gay rights, not for more meddling by the Westerners. There, it will win. But if anybody dare take up the sabre against the Glorious Independence of the African Continent, that war is decided before it begins: we win.
It's why all this holding-of-hands of ULGBT (indeed, African LGBT) with the West is dying. Nobody wins against us. Our victory starts in your very conferences, as you so reliably reported. Plus, nice work, Eshuneutics. Nice reporting.

"[...] shit which is about as revolutionary as a hamster rotating in a wheel."
Wha'?
You don't see how we've re-educated all the African gay people into knowing that the West is the enemy? Before, that resolution you report was unthinkable. Some remain, like GUG, who like to snuggle up with the West. I'll kill them if they don't reform according to the Truth that the Revolution tells. The West is the Enemy. But they are educated, anyway. GUG will be taught where to look for redemption. Then I'll grab Eshuneutics and shoot him against a wall, and throw him in an unmarked grave. :o)

Phew. Eshuneutics, will you give up. Probably not. Anyway, just sign up for the revolution. You make a good soldier. Good propagandist. A bit undirected, erratic, and in dire need of focus training, but the makings of a good soldier are there. Pick up your registration forms at the door. Whew!

@GUG: I'm so gone. This isn't leading anywhere, you see. And tomorrow I have to take on a certain Capitalist who has made a home in some old post of mine. I'm having more adversaries than I can handle, of late, don't you think? People, sign up! You also need the Revolution! :o)

@DeTamble: Tell them! Women are more fun! (GUG, you're not allowed to diasgree.)

Eshuneutics said...
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