Dear Friend,
Greetings. I have been reading your blog <gayuganda.blogspot.com>and
appreciate your literaly gift and ability of writing. I have noted
however that with the ability to speak directly with one another
because of your anonymity, you lack the ability to communicate which
is a two way conversation.
I thank you for your complements on my looks and charming personality.
But I regret that your esteem of me to be hate is wholly
misunderstood. You say you saw the enemy..I am not your enemy. I am
your greatest friend who is willing to tell you the truth even when
others dont want to do that. The bible says only a true friend can
give an open rebuke. Friends are the ones who can have a disagreement.
You see having made if my discipline to work and minister to
homosexuals over the last 15 years, I believe in your God given
potential to be a man, a husband and a father. To live a legacy for
your children and your grandchildren. I completely disagree to the
normalisation of homosexuality, which is a state of gender identity
disorder. What every "kuchu" needs is the willingness to turn to God
and His power for your healing. Remember, there is nothing that is
impossible for God.
I am shocked at your reading of the events at the peoples Forum. You
say that I set up a conversation with Julie and her freinds and set
them up to be thrown out. That my brigade from church wanted them to
be beaten up. This is completely untrue as I had only talked with
Julie and company for a few minutes. But they became too loud and I
had to excuse myself after that. I had a meeting going on, and the
police was very alert for any source of commontion. I really did not
know what happened, but I suspect they were overexcited and began to
argue with some of the people who were unhappy with Warren Nyamugasira
weak explanation earlier. They were eject from the place. I did not
really know what else took place as I had to leave before the prince
Charles arrived. I think that your inability to hear from me has led
you to believe that I set the girls up to be throw out. I think you
should ask them what my message was to them.
My heart bleeds with tears as I meet every homosexual and lesbian
these days. I have many many many stories in my counselling room of
boys who have been sodomized by the bigger boys at schools, or their
employers. Many of the victims weep and tell me how after a while they
began to enjoy being victimized..and how they too started sodomizing
other boys in schools and outside. The same is true of many girls and
now my heart bleeds for many who are in homosexuality not becuase they
made an adult decision to do so, rather they were adoloscents when
they were inducted into this lifestyle. I pray that no other boy or
girl gets defiled either by homosexual or heteresexual predators. I
told Julie that I weep every day..she mocked me saying that you will
weep very much. I do ask that you come over and talkw ith som eof the
former homosexuals in my church whose opininon was sort of like yours
but have now changed.
Lastly, I understnad that there was some mean words exchanged. Words
of revenge and anger by the people there. That they wanted the girls
to be beaten up. You indicate that this was the Ssempa brigade. I am
not sure that they were from my church, because it was a peoples space
and I saw many people from differernt walks of life. So I cannot speak
for all of them. I however realise that some of those could have been
from my church, I regret and wish to apologize to you for words which
were spoken in anger after provocation. I have never advocated for
violence against homosexuality or poeple with other sexual
addicitions. Rather I preach a message of redemption, healing and
maximizing our potential. This was my message for Julie and company.
It remains the same for you and for all. This is the message of Gods
institution called the church.
On other hand is the institution called government. They are also Gods
servants who punish with legal law enforcement. They are mandated to
uphold the laws of the land. My job is to preach to you so you may get
healed. I am not the government as you seem to indicate from time to
time.The government does not preach healing..rather it deals with law
enforcement and punishment.
You are welcome to write to me and ask me for input or clarification
on the actual events. I think that the lack of communication creates
an a climate of unfounded suspicion so that you see Ssempa behind
every shadow. while you are free to make assumptions based on your
impressions and feelings, sometimes the reality is much more different
from what you assume. No wonder the saved person at your work has
surprised you by offerning to help you when others did not. You are
shocked because it is the least person you expected to be your freind.
I think you will be shocked when you get to know the truth of my and
Gods love for you I have many former homosexuals who I work with who
will share with you their stories of the journey into change.
Have a blessed Sunday and we would be glad to have you come experience
the power and presence of God.
Greetings. I have been reading your blog <gayuganda.blogspot.com>and
appreciate your literaly gift and ability of writing. I have noted
however that with the ability to speak directly with one another
because of your anonymity, you lack the ability to communicate which
is a two way conversation.
I thank you for your complements on my looks and charming personality.
But I regret that your esteem of me to be hate is wholly
misunderstood. You say you saw the enemy..I am not your enemy. I am
your greatest friend who is willing to tell you the truth even when
others dont want to do that. The bible says only a true friend can
give an open rebuke. Friends are the ones who can have a disagreement.
You see having made if my discipline to work and minister to
homosexuals over the last 15 years, I believe in your God given
potential to be a man, a husband and a father. To live a legacy for
your children and your grandchildren. I completely disagree to the
normalisation of homosexuality, which is a state of gender identity
disorder. What every "kuchu" needs is the willingness to turn to God
and His power for your healing. Remember, there is nothing that is
impossible for God.
I am shocked at your reading of the events at the peoples Forum. You
say that I set up a conversation with Julie and her freinds and set
them up to be thrown out. That my brigade from church wanted them to
be beaten up. This is completely untrue as I had only talked with
Julie and company for a few minutes. But they became too loud and I
had to excuse myself after that. I had a meeting going on, and the
police was very alert for any source of commontion. I really did not
know what happened, but I suspect they were overexcited and began to
argue with some of the people who were unhappy with Warren Nyamugasira
weak explanation earlier. They were eject from the place. I did not
really know what else took place as I had to leave before the prince
Charles arrived. I think that your inability to hear from me has led
you to believe that I set the girls up to be throw out. I think you
should ask them what my message was to them.
My heart bleeds with tears as I meet every homosexual and lesbian
these days. I have many many many stories in my counselling room of
boys who have been sodomized by the bigger boys at schools, or their
employers. Many of the victims weep and tell me how after a while they
began to enjoy being victimized..and how they too started sodomizing
other boys in schools and outside. The same is true of many girls and
now my heart bleeds for many who are in homosexuality not becuase they
made an adult decision to do so, rather they were adoloscents when
they were inducted into this lifestyle. I pray that no other boy or
girl gets defiled either by homosexual or heteresexual predators. I
told Julie that I weep every day..she mocked me saying that you will
weep very much. I do ask that you come over and talkw ith som eof the
former homosexuals in my church whose opininon was sort of like yours
but have now changed.
Lastly, I understnad that there was some mean words exchanged. Words
of revenge and anger by the people there. That they wanted the girls
to be beaten up. You indicate that this was the Ssempa brigade. I am
not sure that they were from my church, because it was a peoples space
and I saw many people from differernt walks of life. So I cannot speak
for all of them. I however realise that some of those could have been
from my church, I regret and wish to apologize to you for words which
were spoken in anger after provocation. I have never advocated for
violence against homosexuality or poeple with other sexual
addicitions. Rather I preach a message of redemption, healing and
maximizing our potential. This was my message for Julie and company.
It remains the same for you and for all. This is the message of Gods
institution called the church.
On other hand is the institution called government. They are also Gods
servants who punish with legal law enforcement. They are mandated to
uphold the laws of the land. My job is to preach to you so you may get
healed. I am not the government as you seem to indicate from time to
time.The government does not preach healing..rather it deals with law
enforcement and punishment.
You are welcome to write to me and ask me for input or clarification
on the actual events. I think that the lack of communication creates
an a climate of unfounded suspicion so that you see Ssempa behind
every shadow. while you are free to make assumptions based on your
impressions and feelings, sometimes the reality is much more different
from what you assume. No wonder the saved person at your work has
surprised you by offerning to help you when others did not. You are
shocked because it is the least person you expected to be your freind.
I think you will be shocked when you get to know the truth of my and
Gods love for you I have many former homosexuals who I work with who
will share with you their stories of the journey into change.
Have a blessed Sunday and we would be glad to have you come experience
the power and presence of God.
Martin Ssempa Phd
33 comments:
Dear Pastor Ssempa,
Thanks for your kind message. And for your complements.
I will not shed my anonymity. I remember the website on which you put the photos of kuchus. I am a kuchu, and proud of it. I just do not want to be killed by your friends because I am a gay Ugandan.
By the way Pastor Ssempa. I do know that from the medical point of view I am a homosexual. But it is not kind of you to call me that. A homo, it is a perjorative word in common speak. Why dont you call me gay?
I am black also. A Negro by race, but I also prefer not to be called a nigger. What do you think?
Sir Mr Ssempa, You are my enemy. My lover I hold in my arms throught the night. He loves me, and I love him. I cannot mistake his love for hate.
You sir, you want me in prison. You assert that the law in Uganda is too weak, because for making love to my lover, I can be sent to prison for life. So, you want the ultimate? The death penalty? No sir, I want to live. I want life. And one who wants me to die, that is an enemy. You are my enemy.
The bible. I do not believe. Infact, if you read some of the older posts, you will understand that I have been a Christian basher. But for the sake of my friends who are christians and gay, I will not question your faith.
Let me just say that you are a very dissapointing witness to your god. You serve a very terrible god. I have no wish and no desire to serve your god.
My lover is a christian, and he tells me that that god is not the same that you portray. So I reserve my right to believe.
And of course I think of Desmond Tutu. You are the epitome of Christian obsession with homosexuality!
Mr Ssempa. I am a man. I do not doubt that. I can be a father, I am a husband, I can have children and grandchildren. My being gay does not take that away from me. I know that you would take that away from me because I am gay. But again, I do make a distinction.
On the events of the people's forum? Well, did you miss the fact that I was just infront of you? That I heard your chuckle at the girls predicament? That I followed you to the gate by the hotel?
You know, I was there. I was within earshot of what you are saying. Please, do not make me doubt my eyes. I think they work properly.
As for the Ssempa brigade, it was indeed the Ssempa brigade. I know you were not there at that particular moment, but I also know what I heard. Maybe my ears had wax which has miraculously dissapeared!
You know, you do go on and on talking about gay people having bad experiences. I did not. Neither did my lover. To me, I question myself where you meet these guys who seem to have such a bad experience of sex.
I am content to say, Pastor Ssempa, that you just need to meet and talk to a gay man who is content with his sexuality. Then you will understand that it is just normal.
And why do you promise to change us when the doctors say that it is not possible? In many other posts I have asked whether you are a witchdoctor. I ask it again. I know some pastors have claimed to cure AIDS. Why do you claim to cure 'homosexuality'. I mean, it is too easy for someone to look up very credible information and find that it is not true.
Do you really believe that?
Pastor Ssempa,
thanks again for your observations. Because of many issues, I tend not to want to talk about religion and god on this blog. Your god is frankly unappetising to me. I would rather follow the god that Desmond Tutu follows. He is not homophobic.
So, if you dont mind, and to help me not to start Christian Bashing here, please do not ask me or expect me to follow your god.
Thanks again, and do have a good sunday
Heeheheee, yes GUG, I have seen the letter. Maiinnn, this blog is crazy.
Funny how I had just talked about nearly the same thing on the other post!!
Guess me and Pastor Ssempa are kinda rhyming - in a way, I guess!! If I meet him in the future, I will give him a proposition for a rap group: the Homophobes .... and throw yo' hands high up in the air and wave them like u just dont care and let me hear you say ..... nooo, i wont finish that, lyrics under copyright.
Hmmmm,.... and there's ONE God, we might all have differing angles - but his angle on himself says: I love you, I hate your sin and that's why I died for your sin so you could come back to me without your sin. That's what he told me and I listened; but hey like i said: YOUR CHOICE, GUG!!
oh and CONTENT!! ya right, i was "content" when i was addicted to porn. "content" at the bottom of that pit where you wake up and are all covered in slime and you find you just cant go any deeper and it's time to look upwards. Shheeeessshhhh, anyway, that was me. Oh ... check out these guys: settingcaptivesfree.com ... they helped me kick out my ... uuhhhh ... whatever ... actually truth is: i am still a student there.
And what are we doing on a keyboard on Sunday? I should go to church. Maybe you should too!! Want me to pick you up .... ok ok!! Jeezzz, you didn't have to shout!!
Heeheheee. Be cool now!! :)
Dear Tovi,
You are Tovi, arent you?
What would I do in church? What I would want to do you would not want to know.
I am not a believer, remember?
I hope Pastor Ssempa will go on reading this blog - he might learn something about being a true Christian. (Re-reading the parable of the Good Samaritan might also be a good thing - he clearly misses the entire message of that one!).
If he can find the time, inbetween organising hate demo's (how very Christian), he might even ask you if he can borrow a decent book or two on the current modern understanding of homosexuality.
"Gender identity disorder"? OK, forget modern, that's obviously too optimistic. Instead, try Kinsey's landmark 1950's study in America (you know, that place where a lot of your money comes from these days?).
You see, dear Pastor, as Jesus knew only too well, you have to go out and mix with prostitutes or tax-gatherers, or Samaritans, get to actually know them, understand them, to be able to say anything useful about them. Or to them.
And when your ancient book of rules is not good enough any more, you update the rules. (The Pharisees hated Jesus for that!).
Go on. Have the guts to be a true Christian for once. You never know, it might change your life.
He's this little 19year old Rwandese,he wraps a sweater around his shoulder everytime i see him,
lonely,trying to attract conversations,he will probably never read a post by gayuganda,no english,no computer litreacy,nothing. absolutely nothing.
came to work as a houseboy in uganda,picked up by a gay,his monthly wages came in form of homosexual rape.arms tied,forceful penetration from a ugandan
he now seeks help to go on with life,knows one book that remains an inspiration to him,the bible. and one God through jesus christ-the same God juliet mukasa and co unashamingly claim will embrace them on judgement day.
i write on behalf of the many he represents,young boys whose rectums have been torn by good writers posting in support of LGBT PROPAGANDA.
a vice now spread by this form of new media.i will use my computer litreacy as a microphone for the victims of homosexuality.
cindy,val,gayuganda and co. may you expereince redemption at the hands of the ALL-POWERFUL God,and that will come,some day.as for now we shall continue weeping for the sin in the land
woooowe.....woowe...woowe
Africa join in,Bob MARLEY I WISH YOU WHERE HERE to pray for the "kiki men" out of the trap
wooowe...woowe
@eshuneutics,
I appeal to us to refrain from diluting this blog by turning it into arguments of who writes bettter.
Selon moi, it should be more about being able to communicate. If we can make out what the other person is trying to say, that should be good enough.
Granted, one of the reasons I keep coming to this blog is because of the beatiful writing. But beyond that though, I keep reading because the blog raises issues that affect me as
a gay Ugandan. There are other quite a number of other well-written blogs out there that I dont visit as often for that simple reason. Ergo, let's not shut up those who may not be
well endowed with writing skills for the health of the debate. Let the debate continue...
@Gug,
Thanks for documenting the events at the People's Space for posterity's sake and for some of us who may be thousands of miles away from Uganda. At least you have extracted an apology from the "Commander of Hitler's Brown shirts". May be he will discipline his troops come the next engagement.
Debate is good for the soul. All points of view are welcome.It is from the very richness of our diversity that we find inspiration. You are all very welcome.
gug
Did Ssempa really apologise? Only a very optimistic person would see a true apology sandwiched in various reasons that seem to justify the action apologised for- besides casting doubts on the action having ever happened.
But I do love your optimism Tetue!
Hey Eddie,
I had not realised that you actually called me a rapist because I am gay! That’s not cool, is it? I mean, your religion should at least restrict you from casting allegations that are simply baseless, don’t you think?
I know you have been told that gay men have torn rectums and walk around in nappies (diapers) as Ssempa is so fond of saying on the airwaves, soiling our underwear. Me and my mate solemnly assure you that it is not true. And we affirm that we do love sex, call it making love, and do it –a lot!
It is not rape when it is consensual, is it?
pastor or anyone who holds similar views,
what are the exact words in scripture that say homosexuality is a sin.......... there are none. what are the exact words in scripture that indites slavery as a sin.
there are none of those either. in the same way the new covenant of christ indites slavery as a sin, it upholds homosexuality not a sin. it does this on its standing on "loving ones neighbor as oneself"( the fulfillment of the law)and "loving one another as i have loved you", 1john1 witness, and fellowship of the spirit.
the truth is that scripture has never declared homosexuality a sin. only man has declared that scripture declares homosexuality a sin.
the fact that sins are depicted in same sex relations no more condemns homosexuality than the incestial rape of 2samuel, and the infidelity of david, and the prostitution depicted in micah condemns heterosexuality.
would the people who were gay and were sexually abused be any different than the women who came to you, who as a child, were sexually abused by men. does that mean they are heterosexual because of their abuse?
thank god................the general population is becoming aware this foolish reasoning.
nowadays those who equivocate your reasoning have to hide from the from the challenge of reasoned dialogue, by being accessible only to the like minded. the problem for you is your numbers are thankfully getting smaller and smaller.
Semakeddie, how do you know all that from a 19 year old with, as you put it, "nothing"? Assuming that all of that is true, doesn't he have you? What are you doing to help him?
As gayuganda says, love is love. whatever its form. So is rape. It's nothing to do with homosex, or sex at all. Rape is about power issues, as any womens' group will tell you.
And please - get over the whole anal issue too. Many gay men don't do it because they don't enjoy it. And many hetero couples do, because they do!
Why are so many people hang up on anal?
Yeah, once upon a time I was. Seems like too long ago!
And it does happen with heteros. And many are the gay men who just do not like it!
But, especially in Uganda, the cross we seem to bear is connected to the homophobes perception of anal! No use telling them that lots of us dont do it, nor that it does not define being homosexual! That is why I embraced it here.
the truth is that heterosexuals have been indulging in some form of anal penetration and sex since the beginning of time without recrimmination. given the numbers of heterosexuals over homosexuals means that there are probably more heterosexuals indulging in anal sex than homosexuals.
yuucckkkk!! let's not go visual!!
But with all this rationalising and debate about whether homosexuality is a sin or not - and after all the BIG words. I just have to ask: are you kidding me?
First, without the bible - just the natural conscience created within man tells him the truth - it is WRONG. Well, unless of course their conscience has been dulled to the fact - which happens.
Then, with the bible - the famous case of Sodom and Gommorah which is condemned for their homosexuality and not for their "lack of homosexuality" as is commonly said. Just check out Jude 1:7. Oh, I can go all day: You want more: just look at: Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13.
Or and you talked about the new covenant; well you could always check out: Romans 1:26-27 - even describes to the detail of lesbians and men. And of course 1 Corinthians 6:9.
The Bible clearly states homosexuality as a sin. No doubt!! But hey, I can guess you can still twist all the above verses to your own perception and liking - but the truth remains TRUTH.
But see here, now this should get you, homosexuality is a sin, just like any other sin; in 1 Cor 6:9 - it is bundled along with fornication, adultery, swindlers, slanderers, and ..... all of that. I mean it mentions all sin, OK not all sin but I mean: among that list - I don't think there's a man who can say he is innocent of all that. But the next verse gets me! "And that is what you were!!" This is spoken to believers, just like me. All because I came to Jesus - he changed all of that, he changed me from a liar, a thief, a fornicator, an adulterer (with my eyes) - he changed all that - he made me new!! And now, ... ayyayaaa I am NEW!! And so can any of you stuck in homosexuality. He will make you new!!
Soooo, in conclusion; yes, homosexuality is a SIN. That's the truth, but come to the one who washes away all sin - and all for free. No pre-conditions, no pre-contracts - free!!
Be cool ... and read your bible.
Tovi.
some of the prohibitions of lev, of themselves were not necessarily a sin, such as household chores on the sabbath.
num 15: 32 While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.
gen......... gang rape
romans1 is about shamebased lust, which engenders self hatred and loathing and low self esteem.
homosexuality is about human bonding because of mutual attraction, respect, trust, and love for a shared committed life together.
romans 1 is about abandonment of of love of neighbor as oneself for the sake of same sex relations....relations not relationships.
if the incestal rape of 2samuel, and the adultry of 1 samuel(all out of lust) do not condemn heterosexuality. then neither does the same sex lust relations of romans1 condemn homosexuality
icor and 1tim the original translation before a 18th word(homosexuality) was transposed into a 2000 year old text was "defiling oneself with mankind." apart from being totally non specific, again what does this have with same sex human bonding. a bonding that gives self affirmation and mutual support.
how is it that something that you consider a sin, the individuals that practice it, are not found wanting in any sector of society compared to heterosexuals. they are not less fathers, mothers, friends, counselors, teachers, soldiers, neighbors,lawyers, politicians etc. would you say the same of those who were guilty of the sins of galatians5(acts of the sin nature) with those who werent.
from just your words i can see that you are without any 1john1 witness,any fellowship witness(affirming each other life experiences), and you have no scriptural witness. otherwise you would be able to explain romans 1 about what was the lie that was exchanged for what truth, and how was the created served and worshipped, so that ones were given over to homosexuality. you cannot explain any of that,because none of it makes any sense and surely is not of christ.
many homosexuals having been raised in the church came to know christ long before they knew of their orientation. others were predisposed to the orientation from the time they were small children.
lastly if homosexuality is a sin what is the spirit of the essence of homosexuality that it would come against christ. in our covenant with christ the law being merely for conscious,(im sure you know that being in christ we are no longer the law or receive any of god's righteousness from following it) what is the essence of conscious about homosexuality coming against love of neighbor as oneself,(the summation of the law) that would also make it come against christ as well.
like it said scripture has never declared homosexuality a sin. its only man who said it was so.
and it has taken 2000 years for believers to finally get it.
1thess 5 says test everything but keep the good. its taken 2000 years to develope the social tools to actually be able to test it.
when do you suppose it came against christ to burn witches at the stake. something that only ceased in the last 300 years. or the slaving of blacks which has only ceased in the last 150 years(whites ceased 1350 years earlier)
when did women and children being property come against christ?
now that you know that scripture commands us to test everything.......what is your test?
...tip, ...toe, ...tip, ...toe.
I will leave this theological argument to better informed minds than mine is...
out..
you can check out all the comments i have made or any questions about scripture at www.biblegateway.com.
i have just had a very big laugh about the claim by the owner of this blog which says that "I do not doubt that. I can be a father, I am a husband, I can have children and grandchildren. My being gay does not take that away from me. I know that you would take that away from me because I am gay." i find this person very uniformed because He does not understand the fact that a man can non have children with a fellow man and please my you stop sugar courting words i know you are a Homosexual medically homos or lesbians can not pro create life. My friend I believe Pastor Ssempa is all out to Help you and please get hold of His rope He wants to help you and He is not your enemy
Sober up,..
YO FEETXXXL (is that big feet - I actually wear size 13 - that's big in Uganda, what size do you wear?)
This is Romans 1:
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Soooo: from above:
1. men abandoned NATURAL RELATIONS WITH WOMEN and .... FOR ONE ANOTHER .... indecent acts WITH OTHER MEN ...
But hey, you know .... like I said: you might as well interpret it in your own way, Big Foot!!
Be cool!!
The Homophobe.
SIZE 16...........TO EMBRACE ROMANS 1 YOU HAVE YO INCLUDE 24 AND 25 WITH26 AND 27. THEREFORE THE QUESTION IS WHAT WAS THE TRUTH THAT WAS EXCHANGED FOR A LIE AND OF WHAT OF THE CREATED WAS WORSHIPPED AND HOW WAS IT WORSHIPPED SO THAT INDIVIDUALS WERE GIVEN OVER TO HOMOSEXUALITY
IN ADDITION WHAT RELATIONS WERE ABANDONED HOW WERE THEY AVBANDONED. YOU HAVE TO HAVE SOMETHING BEFORE YOU ABANDON IT. AND IF THE RELATIONS WERE MOTIVATED BY SHAMEBASED LUST, THEN IT WASN'T ABOUT RELATIONSHIPS BECAUSE WHERE LUST IS INVOLVED THERE IS NO COMMITMENT TO A PERSON ONLY TO SEXUAL OBSESSION, AND OBSESSION WITH SEXUAL PLEASURE. SO ROMANS 1 WOULD NOT BE ABOUT RELATIONSHIPS, BUT MERELY RELATIONS.......THE COMISSION OF SEXUAL ACTS BETWEEN THE SAME SEXES
Hi Tovi, feetxxxl,
I love your debate, but it has to be kept civil. I know that across the world, those who are pro and anti (gay for feetxxxl, homo for Tovi) seem not to hear each other when they speak.
Everyone shouts, and no one hears what the other is saying.
But why should that be like so?
Let us talk,, and let us listen to what the other is saying.
gug
so what are you saying?
my interest is not debate for debate's sake, but to seek the truth in christ.
so what is your explanation for romans1:24-27?
awaiting your comments.
People through out the world wish to use the bible to condemn homosexuality.
They like to pick out a single verse and repeat it over and over. Yet ignore other verses in the same chapter.
In the last verses of the bible is a warning from "God". He thretens any man who changes the bible.
Since "God" is all knowing, and he placed this warning in the bible, he must of known man/men were going to change the bible.
Now the question is, which parts were changed?
The bible contains many untruths and contradicts itself.
A person who places so much emphasis on a book of lies written by man is truely small minded.
Their obsession with sexual activities of others adds further merit to their own insecurities.
2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
the words of scripture point to the spirit........the spirit of christ. but its is only thru the grace of the spirit will we be able to understand and see their true meaning.
it as appears that after 2000 years believers still dont understand that in christ we are not under the law. and that in christ the law is for conscious......conscious about "loving our neighbors as we love ourself"(the summation of the law)
yet because man has a spiritual hole inside himself, he attempts instead of filling it with the love of god, he fills it with rules about loving god, rules of his own understanding. it has something to do with control.......a passion he never is without.
there is no way that you can because you cannot seperate yourself from the level you have evolved..........
but there was aime in history when slavery was aviable means for the distribution of wealth and power because of the state of the world and man's social evolution. that was time when a man credited with the sins or violations of your family, his clan. in this state of of being the holy spirit was infused to make a seperate and holy people. not from anything they did but because they were chosen.
out of this chosen people came a rich legacy of the spirit as well as god walking on this earth.
because we were made thru the spirit of christ, therefore we have christ in us, consequenntly all men are brothers. christ died not just for believers but for all mankind.
Hmmmmm!
Getting deeper and deeper it seems.
Where does it end? I am an interested bystander...
yo GUG, no worries - me and feetXXXL are not shouting. It is still debate. Sorry if it sounded like shouting. But it's not - I am actually listening and so is FeetXXXL - as civil as can be.
So, FeetXXXL - size 16, is that big or average where you are? whichever country? but they damn sure are BIG, big like XXXL!!!
And now: Romans 1:
the truth exchanged for a lie: that is God, the Way, the Truth and the Life
what was worshipped: created things!! not God! sooo, anything that is not God and is worshipped - in essence IS WRONG!! An idol!! money, porn, sex, images, bodies, ...
which relations were abandoned: NATURAL relations!!
and before you redefine NATURAL - it says: men abandoned NATURAL relations with WOMEN
and then ...
committed INDECENT acts with MEN.
to me, it reads so clearly!! but as i said: you might as well drag in that bit about slavery and 2000 years and whatever else and THEN interprete it in your own way.
oh and you are perfectly right: the Word of God is perfect and unlike Tom would say: it is not a book by man; it is the Word of God THOUGH me and FeetXXXL will forever have differing views of His Word - His Word does not cease to be the Truth. It is an orange - I see a mango and BigFeet sees an onion but it doesn't cease to be an ORANGE. Please don't let our debate take you from the ORANGE. This debate will go on forever as I maintain - homosexuality, just like any other sin is condemned by the Bible. In the same way, masturbation is not written explicitly - but I still contend: IT IS A SIN!! I did it - I tried to defend myself with whatever defence mechanisms but the truth always catches up with you but one other thing - the truth also set me free, just as it does for everyone!!
So ... let God be true and every man a liar!! He is the Orange; I see a mango, you BigFoot see an onion. Differing views yet the Same God. Maybe we will continue this debate upstairs - but nooo, I guess as soon as we reach upstairs we'll both know the TRUTH soon as we get there.
Oh... which reminds me ... yes, Christ Jesus died for everyone - and YES, once you have him, you have life and you have the ticket to eternal life - that's why I'm sure we'll meet upstairs coz you have accepted him as Lord, so have I - our beliefs and views do NOT MATTER - only His Righteousness and Grace.
BUT (a very big BUT!!) - to tap into that eternal life; one MUST accept him as Lord and Saviour. He died for all, yes, but ONE must accept this gift that he has given unto us. Just like medicine, I must swallow it for it to do its work in me even though it may be in my cupboard for ages. Soooo, ... I beg of all of you who read this - accept LIFE so we may meet up there and laugh together!! hahaaaaa hohohooooo hiihihiiiiiii
Be cool.
Tovi.
so what is an indecent act with a man that would come against loving your neighbor as yourself(the summation of all law) and how would it come against this commandment. my niv says that the abandonment and indulgence was motivated by shame based lust.
if a man was motivated to engage in relations with a woman out of shame based lust, what would that look like and what would be the essence of those relations.
would it at all resemble what we understand about heterosexual bonding. that it is a bonding out of mutual love, respect, attraction and trust for a committed shared life together.
what resemblance would the first have with the second.
as i said before,stanislaus
its quite simple. as paul says we are no longer under the law but grace, the law is now for conscious............conscious of loving your neighbor as yourself....the summation of all the law. in order for homosexuality to be a sin it must come against loving your neighbor as yourself.
there is also the parable about good fruit and the good tree. by their fruit you shall recognize them. fruit being, fruit of the spirit.
as of yet no one has been able to explain romans 1. what was the lie that was exchanged for what truth and how was the created worshipped and served so that they were given over to homosexuality.
and if a man was to have relations with a women out of shamebased lust what would that look like. and would that resemble heterosexual bonding, that is done out of out of mutual love, attraction,affection,respect,and trust for shared committed life together.
is not shame based lust about relations while love(agapi) is about relationships.
hey BigFoot:
summation of the Law is actually in TWO, not one:
i.e.
Whole entire LAW
=
love the Lord your God with all your .... with all your .....
+
love your neighbour as you love yourself.
But I put it to you; that the whole entire law STILL is an aggregate of the individual law which has clearly labelled homosexuality as SIN; as so many others.
Yes, when we get saved, we are no longer under the law but also as Paul asks in Romans 6: shall I continue sinning because I am not under law but under grace? Certainly not!!
Being under grace and not under law gives me victory over the law; hence over sin - even though I continually struggle and fight with it but truth says: I conquered sin!!
Soooo, sin is defined by that which is against the LAW; and the Law (summarised, detailed or aggregated) has listed homosexuality as SIN.
where does it say in scripture that homosexuality is a sin. what words in what verse says this. why did you refuse to finish giving an explanation of romans 1. what was the truth that was exchanged for what lie, and how was the created worshipped and served so that indiviuals were given over to homosexuality.
were you saying that it didnt matter what lie was exchanged for the truth. or how the created was served and worshipped only that it was.
and that those who did so were given over to homosexuality. that doesnt make sense why given over to homosexuality. what is the connection between homosexuality and exchanging the the truth for a lie, and serving the created.
obviously your descriptinon of exchanging the truth for a lie......."the truth exchanged for a lie: that is God, the Way, the Truth and the Life"
is a sin we are all guilty of
the same is true for worshipping the created..."what was worshipped: created things!! not God! sooo, anything that is not God and is worshipped - in essence IS WRONG!! An idol!! money, porn, sex, images, bodies, ...
all have been guilty of this. why would some be given over and some not. and how does this apply to children who are already showing a disposition to homosexuality. and why would those raised in the church ,who actively worship christ be given over to homosexuality.
scripture says romans8: 1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.
john12:46I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.
47"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. 48There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.
what is it about homosexuality that makes it a sin. in being given over to homosexuality what essence are you being given over to. how does homosexuality come against loving your neighbor as yourself
romans 13:9The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet,"[a] and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."[b] 10Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
I must say I love you guys.
Your energy is relentless. Indefatigable is the word I know.
Continue!
having beliefs is the essence of being human. there are cultural beliefs, religious beliefs,social beliefs. they direct our paths. BELIEFS are centered around the essence of "i" "i believe this" "i dont believe that".
before the age of ethnic equality, one ethnic believed they were superior to another, and they used scripture to support their belief. the same was true about slavery, and the subjugation of women. before they were challenged, these beliefs were thought to be protectors of some goodness of mankind. however once tested they were found to be in violation of individual rights and destructive to life.
the first test in any society is in the courts. as long as it remains illegal it cannot be tested even in the the church. because the church or mosque is the culture and the culture is the mosque or church. man is a cultural animal. his religion and culture are innertwined. once something has become legal then it is open to the various social institutions to test its essence to determine if its essence runs counter to its beliefs.
in the institution of the church, anything that comes against its beliefs are considered sins. the church is the bride of christ, and embraces christ. therefore, everything that does not embrace christ is considered sin. this is what homosexuality is being tested for.
there are three tests: scriptural. witness. essence.
scriptural test. what does scripture say about it? in this case scripture only addresses sins committed in the commission of same sex acts. it does not address relationships of same sex human bonding. what it does address is sins committed in the commission of same sex relations. that is why stanislaus is having so much difficulty in attempting to show how romans 1 says homosexuality is a sin. homosexuality being a sin is not denoted by a specific scripture but by a teaching. a teaching that uses inference to support its claim.
essence test
what is the essence of homosexuality? is it human bonding? is its bonding motivated by mutual love, respect, devotion,attraction, and trust to have a committed shared life with a life pardner, and is identical to heterosexual bonding.
fellowship test. scripture says that if we walk in the light as he is in the light we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of christ purifies us from all sin. in fellowship not only does the blood of christ protect us from all sin, but the spirit of fellowship of christ brings light to our eyes so that we can see all things of christ. if we withhold fellowship, we walk in darkness.
fellowship witness is a 1john1 witness. it is an intimate witness. its intention is to mutually support each other, to determine the validy of the testimony of each others life experiences ....................."at a particulat time, did a particular person see, experience, feel etc. a particular thing". it was used by john of identify jesus as the christ. likewise it is used to identify all things of christ. a 1john1 witness is as described in ijohn1......that"which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—" the witness is to determine if the supporting of the essence of homosexuality, as a legitimate form of human bonding, quench or diminish the spirit? is there a spirit of denial in the supporting of this orientation? is the fruit of the spirit diminished in the support of homosexuality or is it enhanced? the fruit of the spirit being love, joy, peace, kindness,goodness,patience,faithfulness, and self-control. is the spirt of worship and devotion of worship of christ diminished or enhanced in the support of this orientation?
scripture does say that by their fruit you shall know them. fruit being fruit of the spirit. as with heterosexuals, does homosexual relationships have the capacity to embrace and exude the fruit of the spirit?
and this is what i find interesting. in romans paul says that all law can be summed up in loving your neighbor as yourself............. we are no longer under the law , but instead under grace...........that now we are led and serve in the spirit.
that being the case then it would seem that primary concern would be in the witness test, testing of the spirit, with less emphasis on the law. but instead the reverse is true. all the emphasis is on the law, with little or no interest on the test of the spirit.
nor is there interest in whether homosexuality comes against loving your neighbor as yourself.
having said all this, it becomes obvious that illegality is an important factor in processing this whole issue. in countries where penalties for homosexuality are severe i would assume no test is possible, only the reaffirmation of the old teaching
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